ALL OPINION, totally void of facts!... well almost:
Both sides agree that taxes should be "fair," but how they define fair is vastly different. Should the rich pay more because they can, and its only because of their forced generosity that our country is able to operate? Should we all pay the same amount because the poor receive more benefit while paying less taxes, and as an incentive to be a productive member of society, should those who have earned their fortunes be allowed to keep them?
In short. Yes.
Flat taxes that affect all people equally are almost by definition fair. The amount of taxes charged is proportional to the value of the goods or services provided, regardless of who is receiving it. If I buy a car I'll be taxed just as much as if a millionaire buys that same car. There's some equality.
So, where is the fairness in taking more money from society's most successful... just because they're more successful!?! Shouldn't success be rewarded, should there not be an incentive to be the wildest success you can be, and innovate yer a$$ off all the way to the bank? And isn't America the land of opportunity where your place in society and your success is determined by your talent and hard work?
Yes and Yes.
Furthermore, aren't the rich less likely to cash in on government funded programs? They have private schools, purchase their own health insurance, purchase their own homes and home insurance, live in gated communities, don't go to prison (guilty or otherwise, cuz their lawyers cost a TON!). Rich people basically just need police, military, road and park maintenance, and need illegal immigrants out, which isn't even being done. So why is it that they provide the largest share of tax dollars to programs they won't use?
Argument 1: Earlier, unless you disagreed with me, we answered Yes and Yes to providing incentives to succeed, and to America being the great land of opportunity. I say the two are self-reinforcing; America has provided the incentive for working hard by giving you that framework in which you can succeed and become rich, and because America is great, we are obligated to give back to her and KEEP her great with a portion of the wealth she has given us the opportunity to make. Tadah! Born into another country, into another family, Steve Jobs might be revolutionizing the world of riveting grommets into sneakers. And honestly, born into the wrong family in THIS country he might be revolutionizing the world of janitorial services. Success is not just the product of talent and hard work, but also environment, and dues should be paid.
Argument 2: I make a good amount of money and pay taxes accordingly, and I still have WAY more than I need to get by. I enjoy life, spend as freely as I want on my vacations, and have some fairly nice stuff at my place. People who make more than me, no matter how high their taxes, STILL MAKE MORE THAN ME! And I make less than half the $250k Obama threshold of wealth. Still there are so many rich people who donate money to charity or starving children funds or to the warm fuzzy make me feel good about myself funds, whatever, but they bitch like hell about being over taxed! As if any of those causes should come before the needs of the country. Traditional American beliefs say, 'honor your God, Family, and Country and in that order'. Not 'honor yourself, family, shelter animals, the whales, African orphans, breast cancer, and save some for your country.' How many conservatives do you know who fit this description? How many of them are on the "bring America back to its roots and core values upon which it was founded" bandwagon? To continue the theme from the Arizona post, they follow the most traditional of American values, GREED!
Ok, so if I'm lucky maybe half of you are in agreement that we owe some money to the government, but why do the rich owe more than the poor? They don't, but like any family this country needs X amount of dollars to get by, and it's sure not getting it from the people who need government money just so they can get by. Equal payment from the members of this country would be the equivalent of a father demanding equal payment for bills from his wife, children, infants, pets (haha, though in this analogy each adult, child and pet would have an equal vote in how the household is run and opperated :P ...ignore the absurdity there, cuz for better or worse, that is actually how America is run.).
So who's it going to come from? That's right. It sucks, but that's how it is. Should rich people get a medal of honor or a Christmas card for keeping this country afloat? Absolutely. Does it suck that it gets taken without their permission? Definitely. Would they give it to the government if they had the choice and the government asked nicely? Probably not, that's why the gov takes it. Should they get more say in how the country is run because they're the ones paying for it? No, because it's a democracy of equality, but the cool thing for them is that they DO get more say because the rich control the media and sponsor support efforts for bills they believe in. So congratulations rich guys, you are skewing democracy :D INCENTIVE! For those of you rich folk who don't own TV stations, not to worry, there's a good chance they will also support defending your wealth.
The big gripe: "Ok, I'll pay your blasted taxes because I have to. But for God's sake spend it wisely man!" Just as every family needs X number of dollars to get by, every family also has Y dollars WASTED! How do you determine which tax dollars fund X and which fund Y? Ohoo, that is a much longer blog than I care to attack today. But do consider two things when paying them and you may at least sleep better at night:
The big gripe: "Ok, I'll pay your blasted taxes because I have to. But for God's sake spend it wisely man!" Just as every family needs X number of dollars to get by, every family also has Y dollars WASTED! How do you determine which tax dollars fund X and which fund Y? Ohoo, that is a much longer blog than I care to attack today. But do consider two things when paying them and you may at least sleep better at night:
First, the reason we have the largest economy is because we are the largest consumers in the world, and the reason we are the largest consumers is because we have the largest middle class. The more people we can shoulder up into the middle class, the better off we'll be. The welfare reform laws of 1996 were made to ensure that it's not an enabling crutch, though welfare-type spending has been and will continue to escalate in down times and with the expansion of the government.
Second, the taxes we contribute have been voted on by elected officials, so do your crying to your local representatives and contribute money to battle further tax bills and spending bills, your opposition will do the same, and hooray for democracy. But until your side wins it's your duty as a citizen to pay the taxes owed. DO NOT go crashing your private plane into the IRS building. If he spent as much paying for a good lawyer and some taxes as he did on that plane he crashed, he might be better off than dead. Chronic tax evader, not martyr, don't be that guy!
Sentimental Aside: My family fell on hard times and needed a hand once, right after the divorce. I don't dare ask my mom for the details, but I know we received at least some government assistance. That help was enough for my mom to keep us fed, get on her feet, and decades later she, my sister and I are both very productive members of society and paying back into the funds from which we borrowed, with interest. This may not be the norm, but the poor should have a chance to succeed just as much as the rich, and to some extent the welfare programs ensure that right. Even if only 1 in 5 end up succeeding, we'll still come out ahead (my taxes alone likely pays back in a year what my mom received in total, and my mom pays about the same), and will have at least given everyone a fair chance to succeed.
Conclusion: Yes, taxes are necessary, it's unfortunate but the rich have to take the brunt of it without the benefits (truly taxation without representation :\ ), but it goes to a good cause that indirectly benefits the rich as well. In broad general terms I am SURE there is plenty of government and waste and ways to fix it, but until then keep in mind that the "rich" have more than they need, money doesn't buy happiness, and crying about how things ought to be doesn't buy happiness either. That's it for now, perhaps we can attack what is and is not necessary in a later post.
There will be a post on greed coming soon I'm sure, but I would like to finish the economics book I'm reading first to make it more insightful.
~Yasu
11 comments:
You say, "The more people we can shoulder up into the middle class, the better off we'll be."
Let's do a physical exam on the middle class. The middle class is bruised and traumatized by fraud and manipulation by banks, Wall street, government regulations that brough about the housing bubble and subsequent crash. For many in the middle class their greatest asset was their homes. Which now aren't worth squat, and in some cases less than squat. If we take an X-Ray we will see, government bacteria infecting financial system with cancerous Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac disease being treated by Wall street qwacks.
It doesn't matter if one percent of the richest people pay 40% of the Federal taxes, and 50% pay no federal taxes. The bottom line is the middle class, like you said, pays the same taxes if they buy a new car as the richest people.
Government expansion, waste, and fraud kick the middle classes ass! Government employee's make more than private sector employee's. Medicare, and welfare cheats steal from honest hard working middle class tax payers. Illegal alien's cost the middle clas money inthe form of higher taxes. Again, the rich could care less, they always have enough cash.
The middle class that you're talking about had record foreclosure's last month. Their taxes will go up in the form of loss spending power once INFLATION kicks in, new CAP & TRADE taxes, or VAT taxes, or just straight up new taxes. Since when is $250K all of a sudden the same as a multimillionaire? A family of four after taxes on $250K isn't exactly Donald Trump. What are we paying in taxes overall? 60 percent? How much is enough? How did the country manage before income taxes? Income taxes came into existince at around the same time as the NON-government Federal Reserve. Were taxes created then to pay the Fedeal Reserve interest on debt? Then compounded to pay for feel good program's like social security, and later Welfare, and Medicare? All three of which are proving to be unsustainable "social" program's?
The middle class is the heart of America, and it's in triple bypass, stage three, ready to croak mode.....CALL 911!!!
Wayne Yasuhara
ok, so what part of your argument goes against my argument that the middle class is suffering and needs a hand? If the middle is suffering the bottom is REALLY suffering. Hence the ARR Act. We're not dying from TAXES (mine were lower than last year), we're dying because business is struggling because the banks have no money. Think about it. In my case plummeting house prices and bad investments, led to bank panic, led to market panic, led to reduced lending, reduced spending, reduced corporate income, led to furloughs, pay cuts, and layoffs, led to foreclosures and repeat the cycle. NOT we got taxed too much so we stopped spending. Come on. That's crazy. Most of us got tax breaks, but they were so small we didn't notice. The fact is the tax increases will likely be comparably small (at least in the short term) and we again will likely not notice.
And How much freaking money are you making if you think you pay 60%!?! I know you have home loans with tax deductible interest.
I think I need to make these posts shorter, cuz I think you're missing the point.
Wait, wait! Who said the banks have no money? Last I heard they received billions in tax payer dollars from the Federal Reserve, but they refused to lend it out. I could be mistaken, but I heard that the Federal Reserve loaned the money to the banks for little to no interest, and in turn the banks bought T-Bills and collected 3 or 4 percent. Beats lending it out to that sketchy Main street dude.
Regarding the 60% in taxes....federal income tax, state income tax, property tax, sales tax, gas tax, smog checks, auto registration renewal, toll roads and bridges, capital gains tax, inheiritance tax. Shit! The guy that just croaked just paid tax again on shit he already purchased in his lifetime with after tax dollars. Ridiculous! There's more taxes and regulations imposed on the citizens everyday! Punishing your efforts all along the way. The more you make the more we'll punish you. That's the American dream!
Regarding the poor suffering as well. Extended unemployment benefits. Why bother looking for a job? Section 8 housing....$2,100 a month subsidy on housing for a four bedroom house. Why bother getting off that program? Food Stamps, Medicare, emergency room care, school lunch program, public education. The poor are nearly kicking the middle classes ass when it comes to cost of living in this land of the free. More and more poor people are being seen down at the local 7-11 buying beer in their frick'n PJ's!
If you're agreeing with me that the middle class have it rough. I agree! No argument there! I don't agree that the bottom is suffering along with the middle class. The bottom is like an anchor on the Titanic.....taking everybody down!
BTW, what has improved in the inner cities over the past 40 years with the numerous promises made to the poor from the liberals on the Left? The Right hasn't done shit either, but it's the Left that always promises Kool Aide. We maintain a culture of poverty for some strange reason.
Wayne Yasuhara
oy, you are hopeless man. How bout this, in an effort to more relevantly rant why don't you maybe respond to specific paragraphs at a time. The way you're going I don't even know where to begin. You are like the octopus of the griping world.
You cry about bank manipulation, but also about bank regulation "socialism," you gripe about suffering middle class but don't support stimulus packages, you gripe about the poor being a parasitic barnacle on our titanic debt asses, but totally disregard any of the points I made in the blog post, particularly my own life story.
Complaining about everything is easy, but at least do it in some sort of organized manner, and come up with something productive. Just say we should euthanize the poor if that's what you think. If not, what's your other plan?
...and good lord, put a citation on that Section 8 Housing number. $2100/mo!?! You've got to be kidding me! From what I read you've got an extra zero on that. If ANYONE ever got away with that it was a clerical error. http://www.allenshea.com/section8.html
You have a massive amount of points and counter points in each Blog.
So for this comment, I'll FOCUS on Section 8 housing allowance or "voucher's".
If the gross rent is say 2,100 a month, the voucher holder must kick in 30% of their adjusted income. The size of the allowable housing depends on the size of the family. PHA (Public Hosuing Authority) has a formula. ie. two boys and two girls, gotta be a 3 bedroom minimum.....something like that. You can live in any community you choose. Doesn't have to be public housing projects, etc.
Scenario...woman has three kids, and her boyfriend or husband jumps ship. (Happen's all the time!) She has a part-time job making an adjusted income of $900 bocs a month. She wants to move in to my Livermore house for which I'm asking $2,100 a month. So she kicks in $300 out of pocket, and the PHA kicks in the rest....$1,800bocs. If she starts making more money, but is still within the allowable income range, then she will have to pay more based on her higher 30% adjusted income.
I have no problem with "real" need...."temporary" need.
But I'm seeing lifestyle choices of the "poor and infamous". People aren't stupid, just broke. So say down the road the woman finds a new boyfriend, and he's sleeping over, buying some groceries, gas, maybe dropping a few bocs for rent. Does she report that to the PHA or take a chance? You know the states broke, and aren't about to hire people to drive around and check up on you like the old days. That could be construed as profiling, or harassment of the poor. Who knows?
Public assistance for the habitually poor demands that you keep your ass broke. Under the table income is the way to go for covering that Verizon bill, cable TV, and maybe some cool spinning hubcaps.
Disclaimer: Not everyone is ripping off the system. In fact the biggest thieves are well organized folks like ACORN, and politician's in general. ie. Al Gore capitalizing on Global Warming...which is now "climate change" since it's kinda chilly now days.
What use to be a temporary last ditch effort in a real crisis has now become a generational dysfunction.
You might be able to pick a fact or two apart, but overall without doing heavy research, I think I'm mostly accurate on the issue(s) and the underlying big picture.
Back in the 50's it was an embarassment to walk the aisle as a pregnant bride, an embarassment to have an abortion, and an embarassment to be on welfare. Food stamps were an embarassment at the checkout counter. The BIGGER picture, today, none of that is embarassing. Why? Probably because the value system has broken down over time. Expecting less has become the norm, and crying for MORE is NOT enough! Case in point, they got rid of the stigmatizing food stamps, and have replaced that with the EBT card. Looks like a credit card. COOL!
I won't go into "bailouts, and job stimulus" in this comment post. But I'm sensing a similar breakdown right now as "some" people decide to hang with the extended unemployment gift package, rather than start looking for employment. Maybe that has something to do with the high unemployment in this time of theoretical economic upturn?
I don't have all the answers, I'm just part of the "working poor" out here.
Wayne Yasuhara
FYI, the PHA is no longer accepting invitations to the party. Which makes me wonder where all those poor people are going to be living. If they can cut off the program just like that, just because the state is broke, then how relevant is the program in the first place?
Disclaimer....again, there's people with REAL" need, But there's also bus loads taking advantage of the system. Running the tax payers out of pocket.
Just for fun, here's another free lunch program.....try standing on the Golden Gate bridge looking like you're gonna jump. Wait a few minutes, and a cop will come to arrest you. He will take you in for mandatory psychiatric examination which is set at three days. Doctors, nurses, anti-depression medication, lodging, and food.....all FREE! Multiply that by as many loons sitting around sucking up Percoset all day.
Disclaimer...some loons are really looney.
Note: If you have a job, and you're not a loon, you should definitely be on the Right. Many liberals have good intentions, but they're being played for fools by their political party.
Wayne Ysuhara
I'd like to try responding to this excerpt, "...you gripe about suffering middle class but don't support stimulus packages,"
If this was an SAT test question it would go something like this...."suffering middle class is to stimulus package as Free market system is to government intervention."
On one hand we have the public sector, or government sector. The public sector depends on private sector income to generate tax dollars to support government sector activities like public schools, post office, DMV, etc. Drones take home pay checks, and do incredibly boring shit all day!
The government sector has NO profit motives, so there's very little motivation to produce a quality produt.
Disclaimer...not all government employee's are drones.
The private sector on the other hand is PROFIT driven. There's great motivation to create great products in order to advance quality of life. If companies make quality products, employee's keep jobs, buy lots of stuff, and everybodies happy.
The more money you make, the cooler stuff you can buy. Everyone strives to do better for themselves and their families.
USA Today says, "...private sector pay shrinks most in history!" "....record high food stamps...." Yada yada.
Now add government intervention, stimulus package, etc., and what do you get.....intervention, regulations, taxation, misappropiation, fraud and screwing the system....no quality products. Ironically if you're poor, the last thing you want is government intervention....because you will always be poor! The system runs on lack of motivation.
A middle class guy making money will seriously think about sending his kids to private schools. Why? Because private sector has motivation for producing quality schools.
Disclaimer: Not all public schools are CRAP.
Leave the middle class private sector dudes alone and they will find ways to be productive. Trying to break the middle class by expanding government will only accelerate the burning of Rome....or was that Greece?
Just so you know, "health care" is the latest in MASSIVE government expansion programs....a real jobs killer! If you research government expansion, I'm willing to bet GOVERNMENT is alot BIGGER now than it was 20 or 30 years ago.
We just blew the housing bubble, and now we're doing a government BUBBLE! Remember that scene in the TITANTIC where the boat goes up sideways and people are holding on for their lives? Think of the TITANTIC as the GOVERNMENT. and those poor fools hang'n on as the shrinking middle class as they drop one by one.
Wayne Yasuhara
Haha, man, you sure are a fan of this post.
Yes, thank you for extolling all the virtues of the free market and omitting all the failures. Yes, the free-market is run on greed/incentives and is wildly productive! Super. But it's a fallacy to assume greed will always lead to superior products. Ever read "The Jungle" by Upton Sinclair? The story of the previously unregulated meat market. How about segregation? Monopolies? All problems that required government interventions to promote health standards, social equality, and fair trade. Greed will just as often produce haste, deception, and crap when the market finds itself in an unnaturally unfair environment.
The idea that a fully free market will regulate itself is just as much a lie as Communism's ideals of total equality. Stop listening to Libertarian fossils and THINK! In the real world our free market has led to very cyclical bubbles and bursts, and somehow the libertarians always forget how the market managed to recover after each burst. "Magic, it balanced itself!" Bullshit. So called "socialism" happened. I haven't started tackling Nouriel Roubini's "Crisis Economics" yet, but I'm fairly certain the gist of it is that excessive greed and over speculation is what causes the bubbles to burst, and government intervention is what stops the hemorrhaging and patches the bubble for its refill.
So yes, your SAT analogy is exactly correct! And much as the Free Market should stop crying about the government making a fair trading environment, so should the people stop crying about stimulus and having to repay it. To be honest the fixes are largely superficial and are really aimed at restoring confidence. The whole market's an illusion (look at the derivatives market ballooning larger than the entire global economy!), so of course it's based on confidence. Allowing the big banks to fend for themselves while consumer confidence is down is how the Great Depression happened.
Honestly man, I don't know how many times I can explain this to you. I've given you at least 2 great examples (Great Depression, Japan's Lost Decade) of how the government facilitates economic recoveries, to which you have no response. So how about you show me an example of when the market has EVER reached crisis levels and fixed itself instead. Good Luck.
btw, no jumping to health care, we'll do that on some other post! We likely agree there anyway. But if you want to talk about big government trends, why don't you correlate the size of government expansion with the size of the market crash that inspired it. This shouldn't be too shocking or outrageous.
I'd like to respond to this Wizard of Oz statement.....
"honestly man, I don't know how many times I can explain this to you. I've given you at least 2 great examples (Great Depression, Japan's Lost Decade) of how the government facilitates economic recoveries, to which you have no response. So how about you show me an example of when the market has EVER reached crisis levels and fixed itself instead."
"Government facilitates economic recoveries" is akin to massive oil spill faciliates growth in the fishing industry!"
Main street is not capable of generating an economic crisis without first having government intervention, or manipulation.
Case one: The Great Depression could have been avoided if the government backed Federal Reserve wasn't allowed to let it happen in the first place. Why was there a run on the banks? Why did people fear they were not going to get their money from the banks? Because the lame brain quasi-governmental Federal Reserve was controlling the action. There's 12 Federal reserve banks, of which ALL could of simply delivered some green's to the local banks. Thus alleviating a panic situation. But they shorted the banks, sat back, and caused the panic. Later, the President jumped in with all kinds of great New "socialist" Deals....social security, etc. All which are proving to be unsustainable. But they were quite useful through the years for paying interest payments back to the Federal Reserve. As is Federal income taxes which were created along with the Fedeal Reserve.
Case two: Greece, economic crisis created by government spending, early retirements, fat pensions, all on borrowed money.
Japan's crisis was created by the government artificially keeping interest rates low....like how we're doing now.
Asking the "crisis to fix itself" is like asking the fox to guard the hen house. Government causes the crisis, and pretends to fix it by making it worse.
We're mot on Kansas anymore Toto!
Wayne Yasuhara
still waiting for that illusive self-correcting free market. Economics and politics are necessarily intertwined. I'll respond to the rest of this in email form because YOU ARE CLOGGING MY BLOGGING! Move on to the next one man, the oil post is a good one.
email coming soon.
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